[UPHPU] Was "AJAX frameworks" - Now Frameworks in general...

[Jason Jones]

I'm gonna step out on this one because this topic has been a hot one in my
head for quite some time now.  Not only with AJAX, but frameworks in
general.

When I began programming, there were no frameworks for PHP, JavaScript, or
AJAX (not sure if AJAX even existed back then).  I programmed from scratch
by hand, and have done so ever since.  Anyway, this thread made me think
that this could be quite a good discussion, and bring some light to the
debate to use a framework or not.  Here is my experience:


   - I've created my own templating system which works just fine, and
   enables me to create applications very quickly - it's not robust at all when
   compared to the likes of codeigniter or cakePHP, but for my purposes, it
   works wonderfully, scales well, and can be used in highly complex apps.
   - I worked on a project with a guy who was a framework junkie.  He
   implemented multiple JS libraries (moo-tools, dojo, and most likely a few
   others) and I'm sure he used a PHP framework to code, and although his
   application was developed extremely quick, when actually loaded in the
   browser, it ran as fast as mud flowing uphill.  Seriously, it had so much
   eye-candy, it took forever to actually do anything with his app.  I was not
   impressed.
   - Although I haven't done any work personally with any framework, I've
   read quite a bit about them, and consider myself at least a bit informed
   about them.

Now here are some questions I have:

   1. I know that frameworks simultaneously make coding faster, yet make
   executing code slower.  I know this depends *highly* upon implementation and
   skill of the programmer, yet I can't get it out of my head that while
   implementing a canned framework, I'm importing thousands of lines of
   executable code which I'll never use.  Should I be worried about that?  Are
   the benefits of using a framework worth it?
   2. At the first programming job I ever had, I decided to code by hand (it
   was only HTML and a little JS), while my two colleagues decided to go the
   WYSIWYG route.  While they were marginally faster than me at whipping out
   websites, I found that when their sites had bugs, they had no idea how to
   fix them, and would come to me.  Because I had been coding by hand, and thus
   being able to figure out the bugs, I could squash their bugs much quicker
   than they could.  Will frameworks create the same dependance upon a
   higher-level coding, thus disabling me from learning more about the core
   language?  (Kind of a stupid question, I know, but broadened - I believe
   might still be relevant to users who have never coded PHP outside of a
   framework)
   3. As I understand it, to some level, frameworks standardize the codebase
   and make it easier for more developers to jump on board without having to
   learn the nuances of an eclectic developer.  I'm worried that, should I
   decide to use a framework for a project, and find its capabilities lacking,
   or am unable to make the framework function for a part of the project, I
   would go around it, thus fudging the code somehow, and making more of a mess
   than had I not used the framework to begin with.  Do frameworks provide all
   the funcionality needed to self-contain the code?  Are they programatically
   restrictive?

I guess that's it for now.  Hopefully this will spur some constructive
debate and enlighten people like me who can definitely see the advantages to
using a PHP framework, or a JS library, but can also see the negative side
as well.

--Jason